You have now spent almost two years under the artistic direction of Iris Laufenberg. How are you doing?

ANJA I'm doing very well, because I recently had the opportunity to be part of the production Hospital der Geister (Hospital of Ghosts). A loved one of mine was in the audience and said that it was a demonstration of the power of theater. And he meant that in a completely positive way. In this day and age, when people are questioning whether we should still be receiving funding, to conjure up an evening that shows what possibilities we have, how much potential we have, and that attracts people in droves and keeps them there for over four hours—and at the end they stand up with enthusiasm—that's great. I'm grateful that we've managed to do that.

JANEK I'm doing great too. Because I have the privilege of being able to play so many different roles and therefore have a certain variety of challenges. Das Hospital der Geister is so “everything everywhere all at once.” It's genre hopping: crime, comedy, tragedy, musical—binge watching in the theater with a large, inclusive ensemble—it's totally awesome! I just said I'm doing well, but on the other hand, I'm not doing well when I look at society and see that it's divided. The production Vertikale Wale, in which I'm performing, counters that. It's a philosophical evening about coming together. Many audience members often say afterwards: I'd like to have that feeling of togetherness too.

KATRIJA I recently had what was called “Anita Vulesica Performance Week,” where I performed in three different productions by her, all of which I really like. Or the work with director Pınar Karabulut. They are incredibly talented female directors, and I'm glad to have encountered them in my work. At the same time, I realize how difficult it is to ignore the fact that we live in shitty times. Because what awaits us right now are drastic cuts that suggest that art and culture are not really that important to the Berlin government. And sometimes it's hard to continue believing that what we do every day goes beyond our own framework. Convincing ourselves of this again and again takes a lot of energy. And it only works through imagination, through our audience, through reactions, and by remaining resistant and fighting for the fact that what we do here is indeed essential for survival in the sense of opening up spaces for thought and freedom.

Has your work changed as a result of the pressure to achieve permanent success, measured in economic terms?

KATRIJA I think so. Of course, there have been discussions about not being able to afford many plays that don't sell well but are kept on because they are considered artistically valuable. There is an economic factor at play. Since we are a public institution, this economic factor is understandable, but I just have the feeling that it is taking over.

JANEK In order to meet the savings targets, guest actors will no longer be hired in the future, repertoire performances with guests will be recast, and expiring contracts of some colleagues in other departments will not be renewed. That's a huge loss, a horror. And then there's always this paranoia that you have to be productive and everything has to run smoothly. Otherwise, it's over.

ANJA You have to make yourself indispensable through your own unique qualities and use them as a tool. That's how I see my job as an actress. I can only stand there with everything I have, with all the love I have to give. It's valuable when the audience says we should stay, no matter what. That's my secret goal.

And how are you experiencing the audience at the moment?

KATRIJA I think most people don't really know how hard Berlin's cultural landscape is being hit right now. The part of the audience that does know shows great commitment and says that what is happening here is important and that these are spaces that we need as a society. That's why we mustn't lose heart now. But I sometimes wonder whether economic pressure to succeed and artistic freedom are not actually mutually exclusive. I definitely don't want to play to empty houses. I believe that if our work is socially relevant, an audience will find it. But I don't think success can be planned.ANJA The self-image we had for a long time, that the audience would come anyway, is simply no longer the case. One thought gives me hope when I look at the development of AI: I often think that this is our chance. Theater will be the last place where you can see and experience something knowing that it is really happening at that moment and that it is actually made by people. You won't know anything else. That is our unique selling point, which makes us even more valuable.

Are there any artistic encounters that perhaps realize some of the promise you've just been thinking about?

ANJA I think it's great that director Alexander Eisenach will be staging Jenny Erpenbeck's Heimsuchung at the DT, and I'm also incredibly excited about Jan Bosse and Jorinde Dröse, with whom I have a long-standing professional relationship.

JANEK I'm really looking forward to Die Räuber (The Robbers). It will be about values of freedom in contemporary society. Whose freedom is up for discussion and at what point the demand for freedom becomes radicalized. I really enjoyed working with the directing team on Rainald Goetz's Baracke. That was also a production that, like Schiller, dealt with German bourgeois history. And to negotiate this with a visually powerful, playful aesthetic that is constantly challenging, surprising, and humorous.

KATRIJA I'm really looking forward to the first open call for the Box this season. We've received about 300 submissions. An in-house jury will discuss and vote on the anonymized projects. I like being able to play an active role in shaping things. And it's a good way to counteract the cuts and say that we're opening up the theater to artists from the independent scene, for example, or people who do art that's completely different from ours. I want the theater to think ahead, to always push social discussions a little bit and not just reflect the status quo. Yes, maybe also that we face the crisis with humor. When that works, it's incredibly disarming.

ANJA Humor creates connection, and that's really important to me.

JANEK That doesn't mean that all ambivalence and contradictions in society are ignored. Humor is sometimes said to be a form of repression. But it can also be a reflection that brings about the opposite, like being able to laugh at yourself.

ANJA I get a lot of friends coming to see the shows. They tell me their impressions. From these, I often hear that life and crises have become so exhausting that they would like to experience revitalization. They want to see characters, hear a story they can relate to, find themselves in. I would like to provide that service. I think we can tell stories in a way that is relatable and gripping, and use that as a back door to address the issues that are important to us.

There is a growing gap between audience approval and criticism. How important is criticism to you?

ANJA I stopped reading reviews a long time ago. Not because I don't respect the colleagues who write about us, but because I want to stay true to my own compass. At work, my compass is the director, my colleagues, and our space for thinking, playing, and imagining. During performances, it's the people in the audience. And I don't want to be distracted from that. For the audience, it should be a theater where we form a community. And I find that highly political.

KATRIJA I have to say that reviews aren't always constructive. I stopped reading them about two and a half years ago and I'm doing just fine. Reviews probably aren't written for me to read anyway. At best, they're for people who are thinking about going to the theater and want to get an idea of what to expect.

JANEK I usually let my friends and acquaintances read the reviews. And then I ask them, “Can I read them too, or is it better not to?” I'm actually interested in how other people interpret an evening. When they describe what they've seen and a dialogue emerges about our productions. At the moment, it's often the case that whole rows of seats are taken up by colleagues who have arranged to see a play together. If it's cultivated within the theater to notice each other and give feedback, that's very valuable. My impression is that this has increased recently.

The conversation was conducted by Lilly Busch and Daniel Richter.